By Patricia Lefave, Labelled, D.D.(P)
Your letter was very much like many of them which I frequently receive from some of my normal readers. I have responded to many others of them too but have often found it so difficult to penetrate the resistance on the level of meaning that I don’t go as far as I need to go, simply because it would take up all of my Internet time which would keep me from writing. Writing for others like me is now my first priority.
I have decided to post yours though and to respond to it publicly so that my other readers can see what I see. Most of them, who are largely labelled people already do of course, but the freshly confused and bewildered, those newly psychiatrized and mystified, by a system (yes, a ‘system’ Rob) and by a public that now defines reality FOR us also, keep right on coming by the tens of thousand every day being ground out by a machine that believes all human problems will be taken care of by the right kind of pill in a quick and easy remedy, often one size fitting all. Those who have made it all the way through the psychiatric maze and thought the contrived chaos and managed to come out the other side of it again, feel obliged to throw out a lifeline to those who now feel as we once did ourselves.
No one understands it like those who have gone through it Rob. I hope you get this point Rob, I really do. It is very important to our collective well being; yours included. Many remarks in your ‘comments’ struck chords within me and others I know as well. Your comments play a familiar tune to me and it is a tune I want to help you to change.
The first thing I noticed was the ‘corrective’ tone. To relate this way requires something in you. It requires you to have a sense of yourself and your understanding of my experience (one you state you have not had yourself) which YOU believe is superior to my own. THAT Rob is pretty much the premise of the psychiatrist/psychiatrized relationship too. In fact, many of our problems occur within the relationships with others who represent ‘authority’ of some kind, even if it is their self defined ‘authority.’ Sometimes it is family, sometimes, doctors, bosses, gang leaders or cult leaders. There is no end to the concrete titles given to the same style of relationship.
You mention psychiatry’s ‘poor success track record.’ I wonder what would constitute a ‘success’ to you? Bet it would not be defined the same way by me. You also stated anyone concerned with ‘winning’ couldn’t side with psychiatry. “Winning WHAT exactly Rob? A lot of people including myself, really aren’t focused on ideas of being on ‘winning sides’ as an abstract notion. More often we are focused on questioning what it is that is being perceived as ‘winning.’
We tends tend to be the introspective type you see, or most of us were, up until everyone everywhere started getting the same labels applied to them, no matter what the real cause of the individual’s distress including simply the distress caused by being defined as ‘mentally ill.’ Now we are labelled in ways that completely blur the lines between stress real disease process, addictions or criminal behaviour. It is no longer so easy to see the people behind the applied labels when we all get to wear the same ones. All the ‘dangerous lunatics all seem the same to the public don’t they? As one psychiatrized person pointed out to me once (and I have experienced much the same) the public really does not know the difference between the word psychosis and psychopath perceiving them as the same thing. All they know (believe) is that we are all ready to go on a killing binge like wild animals out of control, the minute we aren’t tranquilized. Nice image. It serves psychiatry’s purpose though and that purpose is to gain more and more power and control OVER others because it is faster to do that then to waste time (as they tend to think of it) talking to ‘diseases’ (as they tend to think of those they label)
The public, like you Rob, tends to see all of us as pretty much the same; all sort of stupid, unconscious prone to sudden violence for no reason at all and basically less than human. They have been well trained to do so. This is a belief of long standing and you know what beliefs of long standing that cannot be shaken are often called right? DELUSIONS. Often it is more about who has the biggest ones.
My point in ever mentioning costs though is not about saving taxpayers money. I am sure if I was a politician I would jump right on that one but I am not. It is also no really about protecting ‘others’ about exposure to violence although I do believe the humungous price tag the system generates for it’s brand of ‘help’ could and should be used to completely redirect the system (yes the ‘system’ Rob) from a mental illness system (which is what it really is) to a true mental health system (which is currently what it is not) if that were done, I think we would in time (and not all that much of it either) start to see this price tag shrink and at the same time we would see the people using it getting well. REALLY well Rob, not just controlled or drugged into submission. I think what we really need to focus on is educating the public. Not as it is done now like educating the public about how all of us don’t know our own asses from a hole in the ground and so everyone else needs to pressure us to accept ourselves as inherently defective. Let us make that really clear here. I mean ‘educate the public about themselves and their own false beliefs and their constant need to deny their own ‘mental’ problems and project them willy nilly all over their friends, relatives and co-workers while always defining themselves as those ‘others’ who cannot be blamed. (I just read a scary piece in the paper by a local minister who says things that are absolutely bizarre. But that is a piece for another post on another of my blogs) I would like the public at large to be able to see and hear themselves as they really are and I would like them (and you too Rob) to see and hear us as we really are and right now there is too much mystifying fog in the way all the time for that to happen. What I am trying to do here Rob is blow that fog away with some straight talk directed at people who admittedly, really don’t want to hear this. I am determined to be one of the psychiatrized folk who make them hear it whether they want to or not and there are more of us joining together all the time. You know Rob, I really believe that if they could do that the whole world would change for the better as a result. Just call me the deluded paranoid optimist Rob, although my persistence is actually more likely to be called ‘obsessing’ by those who need to see it that way.
The world loves its delusions Rob and often it is the ‘normal’ who love it the most. It feels GOOD to feel superior doesn’t it? It feels good to many to base their beliefs on a 'them and us' mentality, even if it is only a temporary ‘fix.’ It feels good to be able to say to yourself, “Thank God I am not crazy like HER. I will even be altruistic and help her become sane like ME.”
Would it surprise you to know Rob that you seem quite a psycho spiritual mess to me? I would bet it does even if just for that minute when you are forgetting that you can overlook what I perceive simply by focusing on my psychiatric label which works like an instant in invalidation tool for those who do not (yet) have a label of their very own. Never mind though Rob; there are now so many new imaginary ‘diseases’ out there in DSM Land that there are more than enough for everyone to have one or two mental illnesses of his or her very own.
“Normal’ is fast becoming a state of meaninglessness which can be controlled (should anyone feel a pang of conscience, guilt, or the urge to see of find any faults) with a mood altering drug designed to return the emotional to a state of suitable numbness, a small perfect little smile ever present, ever ready to deny the world is, what it is, and that we humans have made it this way. The old expression ‘that is just how life is’ is the platitude of choice to justify the lack of effort to fix what is really wrong and to ‘fix ‘ instead those who are upset by what is wrong. ‘
The role between psychiatrist and psychiatrized IS relative; it is a dueling perspective on the same reality which I have experienced personally. I once said to those judging and assessing me from a nice safe distance away, ‘I am a person.’ (Meaning not a thing, object, subject, disease process or fascinating case) They did not know what I meant and many perceived my saying so as ‘really funny.’ Talk about inappropriate affects Rob, these boneheads were overloaded with them yet they saw and heard nothing of either me or themselves and THAT Rob is what this problem is really all about. It is a great illusion with enthusiastic participation by hordes of people who will gladly follow anyone as long as THEY can believe they are on the ‘winning side.’ That is what is so scary.
Please Rob, don’t presume to ‘correct’ my perception of my own reality for me. You did not live it. You are not me. I don’t need you to do that and I actually find it very annoying to say the least. Since you are making me feel annoyed Rob, should I assume these are symptoms of your mental illness? Is an intervention in order? You are not in a position to correct my life for me and in fact, your own idea that you are in a legitimate position to be able to do that is a large part of ‘our’ problem. Virtually everyone in our lives, especially after labelling, is quite sure they understand our lives, thoughts, feelings and experiences BETTER than we. Psychiatrists do the same thing and they don’t know it either. They believe it is legitimate for them to judge people’s life experience in which they played NO part, in ten minutes. There is nothing more arrogant and yet they don’t see it that way at all.
Eventually Rob, something really WAS wrong with me. I broke down, under enough pressure, involving half the community all ‘helping’ by following me around and ‘observing’ me, to break fifty people. Of course this group behaviour was denied and it does not take a genius to figure out why that would happen as it has. Once denied, their group denial was then magically transformed into MY perception/reaction problem. It happens all the time in groups Rob. It really does. That is why the psychiatrized all say the same sort of things. Because on a metaphysical level the same sort of experience, involving groups of people, happens over and over again.
It is the stuff that mobs are made of.
To be continued
End of part one of my Answer
Showing posts with label Answer to Corrections. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Answer to Corrections. Show all posts
Sunday, February 24, 2008
Dear Rob H. from the USA : Part 2
By Patricia Lefave, Labelled, D.D.(P)
When you write to me Rob, you are writing to someone who has been defined as ‘crazy’ and you then proceed to tell me just what I am like. One of my posts on this blog has a link in it on 'Identifying Mentalism', which is a term coined to mean something similar to sexism or ageism or racism. This is also linked into my own post “The Dialogue: Part One, with Rob Wipond.”
which is a term coined to mean something similar to sexism or ageism or racism. This is also linked into my own post “The Dialogue: Part One, with Rob Wipond.”
Can you hear yourself Rob, calling me lazy, defective and ‘dangerous’? Am I ‘allowed’ to feel angry and frustrated with you? Will my emotions be perceived as legitimate or real to you or will they be brushed aside as the irrelevant symptoms of the mental defective you are telling me that I am?
I WAS supporting and caring for myself and I have been doing that since I was eighteen. I was 47 when I broke down and I was 49 when my label was applied for my complaints about the behaviour of others towards me. The system forced me out of my job for that. They denied it existed and it is really not all that hard to understand why such denial exists is it? (the normals love denial)
They then told my employer that I was too ‘crazy’ to work and the manipulations and coercive tactics then began as they always do with those who won’t be amiable and ‘co-operative’ enough to make the system happy. So my employer got told I was ‘totally disabled.’ You see Rob, this is the kind of power they have, and use regularly, so they can coerce people into ‘admitting’ they are crazy. If you ‘admit’ it you are ‘allowed’ to work again but then you may have no job because your employer does not want to give work to someone as ‘unstable’ and potentially ‘dangerous’ as you, a crazy person. That is who my psychiatrist told my employer I was so I would deny my own reality and embrace his fantasized version of it which he liked better. His version made everyone involved ‘blameless’ you see. That is what ‘medicalizing’ human problems does best. Makes everyone (well except the non compliant patient perhaps) ‘blameless.’ Of course the public does not know all of this part of it as that is ‘confidential’ and also I have been instructed by those involved not to attempt to talk about it.
Your second point about the real problem with my presumed ‘madness’ doesn’t apply either. Though I am sure there are many people who feel ‘annoyed’ by my awareness of them, and their own bad behaviour, I never once even raised my voice confronting any of them, nor do I use any violence or cursing or damage anyone’s property. In fact, Rob, statistically speaking, we labelled people are far more often the victims of crime than the criminals. Research that fact Rob. Here is a link that will get you started and hopefully lead you to more:
Below is a short excerpt from the article, "Extreme Victimization of People with Mental Health Problems" as an example of what life is REALLY like when you get labelled. I have a very similar experience myself. For complete article click on the title link.
November 29, 2007by Chris George
“Most people with mental health problems have suffered theft, been attacked, harassed, sexually assaulted or raped by people in their own community, according to a new report.
Mind, the charity which published today's report, said it exposes the "extreme" harassment and victimization committed by people towards neighbours who have diagnoses such as depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.
Its chief executive Paul Farmer said: "People with mental distress feel unsafe in their own communities, unsafe in their own homes and have even come to expect harassment as part of living with mental distress."
Mind surveyed 400 people with mental health problems and victim support workers. It found 71 per cent of people with mental health problems had been victimized in the last two years. This compares to 24 per cent of other people, as detailed in national crime statistics.”
I am law abiding and so are most of the psychiatrized people I know though like in the general population there are some real jerks amongst the psychiatrized also. Still most of them are under far more pressure, to which they react, than the general population so we have to factor that in as well. Most of us though are law abiding despite what often becomes the constant harassment of those presumably ‘normal’ others who can’t be blamed. ( you know when I say that I am being facetious, but I have learned that I have to SAY that too or people will think I mean it!)
Your idea that ‘all would be rosy’ if only I was more ‘amiable and co-operative’ is unrealistic. It would be really nice if those ‘others’ we accuse of abuse weren’t ‘really’ abusive but Rob, that is a massive denial of the reality of life and my own opinion is that this denial of it is only serving to make it even worse since it is not seen for what it is. It is really enabling Rob. I too get told, often by those who have done me harm, that I am not ‘smiling’ or ‘friendly’ enough to suit them. You see they want to believe their own duplicity is not seen by me. They really want me to go along with their pretensions. They want me to enable them and go along with the group fantasy. (‘Comply’ in the jargon of psychiatry) From MY point of view though, it is like watching children having a really long temper tantrum because they can’t get their own way.
The thoughts’ whirring around in my head’ were actually an attempt to sort out the non stop contradictions and multiple versions of my supposed ‘reality’ as created and defined FOR me by others who can never accept being wrong about anything no matter what it costs us all. The source of my problem was external not internal as presumed. Coupled with a refusal by all involved to discuss it directly with me and try to sort it out, I eventually got disconnected from concrete reality and was driven into a psychosis. I told them it was happening. I could feel myself going and I told them that too. They could not hear it as having any relationship to what they were doing or what they were denying they were doing. (in some cases) The psychosis was not there first. It was the RESULT of the group behaviour ; it was not the CAUSE of the group behaviour. You’re right though. Groups of people DO want people defined by them as ‘crazy’ to be brought under the control of ‘authority’ and I think they want that for a number of reasons, all of them fear based.
“Simple jobs” are still being found for us Rob. They are often being used to replace the jobs we got forced out of by the psychiatrists who told our employers we were ‘nuts.’ Most of us are still assumed by most people to be stupid. The public tends to equate the two you know. It is probably the patronizing little tones we get all day from the normals that keeps that going. Nothing keeps any status quo of belief going like general agreement upon it. As far as ‘families’ go, why don’t you try asking the ‘crazy’ what that’s like from his/her point of view instead of TELLING us? Ever notice how 95% of the time other people take on the job of acting as our ‘interpreters’ as though speaking for ourselves was precluded as a possibility? You should feel what that’s like; being 'third personed' all the time, often done right in your presence. It is like being made invisible as a human being. Other people dictate to you who you are, what you know, what you will be aware of, what thoughts you may have, who you will be allowed to talk to, what you may say, how you will react and what you will be allowed to feel. How does that sound to you Rob? Do you think you would appreciate being forced into a psychological position like that? Would you be grateful, as we are so often told we ‘should’ be? Do you think you might feel depressed or angry in such a situation?
Your description of society as ‘a well oiled machine’ is ringing true to me and to many like me. It is very hard to talk to people who act as if they were machine parts rather than human beings. This is where our common references to robots and automatons comes from you know; also our references to Brave New World and 1984.
Our imagery, even in psychosis is meaningful not meaningless Rob as society and psychiatry wants to believe. It is indicative of the nightmare of society’s inventions of “reality’ which our symbols and metaphors actually represent. If you could get your own head out of the alternate meaning that has been supplied for you, you might even be able to hear some simple truths in them.
I wonder if the ‘village idiot’ who was treated as a ‘source of humour’ and who complained that people ridiculed him and laughed at him all the time as if his feelings did not matter was as ‘amused’ from HIS point of view as those DOING the laughing and then denying it? What do you think Rob? Do you think the ‘village idiot’ understood how ‘funny’ it was to be treated like that? Do you think he got ‘the joke’? Or do you think the ‘amused’ others may have decided he was too ‘stupid’ to understand he was being treated that way so that made it OK for them to do so? Do you think that society always picks the right people to label as the idiots Rob? Or do you think it might just often be that old standard defense mechanism known as ‘projection’?
I don’t actually see all of this as a ‘nefarious’ scheme Rob. It is actually scarier than that. Dealing directly with evil that shows me it’s face is actually easier than with evil that is disguised or ‘hidden.’ The fact is I believe that the majority of psychiatrists do what they do and believe as they believe, acting sincerely and with good intentions. It is the blindness to the reality of self and others that makes this business so scary and which makes the entrenched beliefs of the system (yes the ‘system’ Rob) and the public at large so extremely difficult to penetrate. People who believe they are ‘superior’ in either understanding or worth, see no reason to communicate directly or honestly with those they define as their ‘inferiors.’ That is my assigned role in this Rob: the ‘inferior’ mental patient; no need or desire for anyone to talk directly to me and there hasn’t been for over fifteen years now. Instead, I remain the object of interpretation for virtually anyone, and everyone, in my own city. Every day a groupthink session takes place and a new twist on the reality of ‘me’ as defined by others is reached by means of this consensus. No input at all from me is seen as necessary or desirable. It never occurs to those doing it that WHAT they are doing is acting as my ‘interpreters’ as though I were incapable of speaking the same language. It really is like ‘talking to the walls’ from my point of view. It reminds me of the child’s chant if it were delivered by psychiatrists: “I’m rubber and you’re glue; anything YOU say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
Being ‘stuck’ in the system and trapped by it’s jargon is exactly what happens when we try to tell our own truth, Rob and this is something only those of us who have experienced can see and it is also why those of you who have not experienced it cannot see.
End of Part 2:
Part 3 to Follow next week
When you write to me Rob, you are writing to someone who has been defined as ‘crazy’ and you then proceed to tell me just what I am like. One of my posts on this blog has a link in it on 'Identifying Mentalism', which is a term coined to mean something similar to sexism or ageism or racism. This is also linked into my own post “The Dialogue: Part One, with Rob Wipond.”
which is a term coined to mean something similar to sexism or ageism or racism. This is also linked into my own post “The Dialogue: Part One, with Rob Wipond.”
Can you hear yourself Rob, calling me lazy, defective and ‘dangerous’? Am I ‘allowed’ to feel angry and frustrated with you? Will my emotions be perceived as legitimate or real to you or will they be brushed aside as the irrelevant symptoms of the mental defective you are telling me that I am?
I WAS supporting and caring for myself and I have been doing that since I was eighteen. I was 47 when I broke down and I was 49 when my label was applied for my complaints about the behaviour of others towards me. The system forced me out of my job for that. They denied it existed and it is really not all that hard to understand why such denial exists is it? (the normals love denial)
They then told my employer that I was too ‘crazy’ to work and the manipulations and coercive tactics then began as they always do with those who won’t be amiable and ‘co-operative’ enough to make the system happy. So my employer got told I was ‘totally disabled.’ You see Rob, this is the kind of power they have, and use regularly, so they can coerce people into ‘admitting’ they are crazy. If you ‘admit’ it you are ‘allowed’ to work again but then you may have no job because your employer does not want to give work to someone as ‘unstable’ and potentially ‘dangerous’ as you, a crazy person. That is who my psychiatrist told my employer I was so I would deny my own reality and embrace his fantasized version of it which he liked better. His version made everyone involved ‘blameless’ you see. That is what ‘medicalizing’ human problems does best. Makes everyone (well except the non compliant patient perhaps) ‘blameless.’ Of course the public does not know all of this part of it as that is ‘confidential’ and also I have been instructed by those involved not to attempt to talk about it.
Your second point about the real problem with my presumed ‘madness’ doesn’t apply either. Though I am sure there are many people who feel ‘annoyed’ by my awareness of them, and their own bad behaviour, I never once even raised my voice confronting any of them, nor do I use any violence or cursing or damage anyone’s property. In fact, Rob, statistically speaking, we labelled people are far more often the victims of crime than the criminals. Research that fact Rob. Here is a link that will get you started and hopefully lead you to more:
Below is a short excerpt from the article, "Extreme Victimization of People with Mental Health Problems" as an example of what life is REALLY like when you get labelled. I have a very similar experience myself. For complete article click on the title link.
November 29, 2007by Chris George
“Most people with mental health problems have suffered theft, been attacked, harassed, sexually assaulted or raped by people in their own community, according to a new report.
Mind, the charity which published today's report, said it exposes the "extreme" harassment and victimization committed by people towards neighbours who have diagnoses such as depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.
Its chief executive Paul Farmer said: "People with mental distress feel unsafe in their own communities, unsafe in their own homes and have even come to expect harassment as part of living with mental distress."
Mind surveyed 400 people with mental health problems and victim support workers. It found 71 per cent of people with mental health problems had been victimized in the last two years. This compares to 24 per cent of other people, as detailed in national crime statistics.”
I am law abiding and so are most of the psychiatrized people I know though like in the general population there are some real jerks amongst the psychiatrized also. Still most of them are under far more pressure, to which they react, than the general population so we have to factor that in as well. Most of us though are law abiding despite what often becomes the constant harassment of those presumably ‘normal’ others who can’t be blamed. ( you know when I say that I am being facetious, but I have learned that I have to SAY that too or people will think I mean it!)
Your idea that ‘all would be rosy’ if only I was more ‘amiable and co-operative’ is unrealistic. It would be really nice if those ‘others’ we accuse of abuse weren’t ‘really’ abusive but Rob, that is a massive denial of the reality of life and my own opinion is that this denial of it is only serving to make it even worse since it is not seen for what it is. It is really enabling Rob. I too get told, often by those who have done me harm, that I am not ‘smiling’ or ‘friendly’ enough to suit them. You see they want to believe their own duplicity is not seen by me. They really want me to go along with their pretensions. They want me to enable them and go along with the group fantasy. (‘Comply’ in the jargon of psychiatry) From MY point of view though, it is like watching children having a really long temper tantrum because they can’t get their own way.
The thoughts’ whirring around in my head’ were actually an attempt to sort out the non stop contradictions and multiple versions of my supposed ‘reality’ as created and defined FOR me by others who can never accept being wrong about anything no matter what it costs us all. The source of my problem was external not internal as presumed. Coupled with a refusal by all involved to discuss it directly with me and try to sort it out, I eventually got disconnected from concrete reality and was driven into a psychosis. I told them it was happening. I could feel myself going and I told them that too. They could not hear it as having any relationship to what they were doing or what they were denying they were doing. (in some cases) The psychosis was not there first. It was the RESULT of the group behaviour ; it was not the CAUSE of the group behaviour. You’re right though. Groups of people DO want people defined by them as ‘crazy’ to be brought under the control of ‘authority’ and I think they want that for a number of reasons, all of them fear based.
“Simple jobs” are still being found for us Rob. They are often being used to replace the jobs we got forced out of by the psychiatrists who told our employers we were ‘nuts.’ Most of us are still assumed by most people to be stupid. The public tends to equate the two you know. It is probably the patronizing little tones we get all day from the normals that keeps that going. Nothing keeps any status quo of belief going like general agreement upon it. As far as ‘families’ go, why don’t you try asking the ‘crazy’ what that’s like from his/her point of view instead of TELLING us? Ever notice how 95% of the time other people take on the job of acting as our ‘interpreters’ as though speaking for ourselves was precluded as a possibility? You should feel what that’s like; being 'third personed' all the time, often done right in your presence. It is like being made invisible as a human being. Other people dictate to you who you are, what you know, what you will be aware of, what thoughts you may have, who you will be allowed to talk to, what you may say, how you will react and what you will be allowed to feel. How does that sound to you Rob? Do you think you would appreciate being forced into a psychological position like that? Would you be grateful, as we are so often told we ‘should’ be? Do you think you might feel depressed or angry in such a situation?
Your description of society as ‘a well oiled machine’ is ringing true to me and to many like me. It is very hard to talk to people who act as if they were machine parts rather than human beings. This is where our common references to robots and automatons comes from you know; also our references to Brave New World and 1984.
Our imagery, even in psychosis is meaningful not meaningless Rob as society and psychiatry wants to believe. It is indicative of the nightmare of society’s inventions of “reality’ which our symbols and metaphors actually represent. If you could get your own head out of the alternate meaning that has been supplied for you, you might even be able to hear some simple truths in them.
I wonder if the ‘village idiot’ who was treated as a ‘source of humour’ and who complained that people ridiculed him and laughed at him all the time as if his feelings did not matter was as ‘amused’ from HIS point of view as those DOING the laughing and then denying it? What do you think Rob? Do you think the ‘village idiot’ understood how ‘funny’ it was to be treated like that? Do you think he got ‘the joke’? Or do you think the ‘amused’ others may have decided he was too ‘stupid’ to understand he was being treated that way so that made it OK for them to do so? Do you think that society always picks the right people to label as the idiots Rob? Or do you think it might just often be that old standard defense mechanism known as ‘projection’?
I don’t actually see all of this as a ‘nefarious’ scheme Rob. It is actually scarier than that. Dealing directly with evil that shows me it’s face is actually easier than with evil that is disguised or ‘hidden.’ The fact is I believe that the majority of psychiatrists do what they do and believe as they believe, acting sincerely and with good intentions. It is the blindness to the reality of self and others that makes this business so scary and which makes the entrenched beliefs of the system (yes the ‘system’ Rob) and the public at large so extremely difficult to penetrate. People who believe they are ‘superior’ in either understanding or worth, see no reason to communicate directly or honestly with those they define as their ‘inferiors.’ That is my assigned role in this Rob: the ‘inferior’ mental patient; no need or desire for anyone to talk directly to me and there hasn’t been for over fifteen years now. Instead, I remain the object of interpretation for virtually anyone, and everyone, in my own city. Every day a groupthink session takes place and a new twist on the reality of ‘me’ as defined by others is reached by means of this consensus. No input at all from me is seen as necessary or desirable. It never occurs to those doing it that WHAT they are doing is acting as my ‘interpreters’ as though I were incapable of speaking the same language. It really is like ‘talking to the walls’ from my point of view. It reminds me of the child’s chant if it were delivered by psychiatrists: “I’m rubber and you’re glue; anything YOU say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
Being ‘stuck’ in the system and trapped by it’s jargon is exactly what happens when we try to tell our own truth, Rob and this is something only those of us who have experienced can see and it is also why those of you who have not experienced it cannot see.
End of Part 2:
Part 3 to Follow next week
Dear Rob H. from the USA : Part 3
By Patricia Lefave, Labelled, D.D. (P)
I agree too that analyses of abuse of power tend to be favoured by those of us not IN power. I see that as a good thing though, not a ‘symptom.’ It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out why either. What I propose though is that you get the focus off of the powerless and their perceptions and reactions, and ONTO those who love power for power’s sake. You could start with yourself Rob. Why do you think YOU need to correct my perception of my own reality FOR me? What ‘practicalities and human limitations’ are you talking about? Your own? Do you think you like to look at the surface of things and perhaps even fear to look beneath? Do you think you like to justify the idea of power and control over ‘inferiors’? If so, why? Tell me why based on an analysis of YOU; not based on your analysis of ME and those ‘others’ you think are like me, and who you clearly have no problem ‘blaming.’ Do you also often instruct people like me not to ‘blame others’? Does it ever strike you as at all absurd when you hear yourself saying that?
The history lesson you are offering me in your letter is very nice, but to me, it seems more like an attempt to distract me from real issues, or perhaps to justify society by showing me that “all of this goes back a long way, so we shouldn’t try to change anything.” Is ‘any view held by most people’ always the ‘correct’ one? Do you think people tend to follow whatever the consensus opinion of the day might be? Do you think that presumably ‘sane’ people get entrenched ideas? Look at history for answers to that too.
Even though you believe that ‘rebellion’ or dissidence’ is only about ‘money and more free time’ and ‘not alternate or better realities’, I’m afraid I can’t agree.
Everything isn’t about money, which you would know if you had shared the psychiatrized experience. I am sorry to have to tell you this Rob but I get a real sense of smugness from you and your certainty that you understand this better than those of us who have lived it. It is an uncomfortable feeling I have had often with ‘others.’ No doubt you will assume this ‘discomfort’ originates within me and that is also something we are all aware of. It is like you put up a wall of separation from us so you can hide your participation in this from yourself. Most of us ‘nuts’ feel that intensely from most of you self defined ‘sane’ ones. It is in fact, one of the ‘ideas’ I am ‘rebelling’ against and intend to keep doing so too. It is such ideas that create these power struggles; ideas and beliefs Rob, not money and leisure time.
You think there is only one reality? Do you think you define that? Do you think you are keeping YOUR ‘fantasies and subjective tastes’ out of your analysis? You believe you are an ‘objective observer’ do you? I am surrounded by ‘objective observers.’
Let me give you a concrete example of ‘alternate reality’ how it works and how it becomes a part of concrete reality by bringing it into our institutions and ‘correcting’ those who ‘rebel’ against it.
Example:
A child claims he is being sexually abused by his uncle. His uncle says it is all nonsense and that his nephew is ‘ill’ for saying that. The psychiatrist who gets called in decides he believes the uncle, who seems like a real nice guy to him. The uncle seems sincere and also has a good career.
When the child hears this and he cries, “No! no!’ and the psychiatrist then ‘interprets’ the meaning of this for the uncle. The child, who is now defined as ‘mentally ill’ for claiming abuse is his problem, is now thought to be having a ‘temper tantrum’ because he cannot ‘manipulate anyone with his lies.’ He cries, “No! No!’ explains the psychiatrist, because he has been found out and his lies do not work.
The truth is the child was sexually abused and now he is trapped with his abusive uncle who has already told him that if he ever told anyone else, his uncle would kill him. So now, instead of getting help, the child is getting ‘help.’ (labelled and invalidated)
The child’s distress is real, it’s not a chemistry problem and ‘No! No!’ means “No, don’t believe my uncle. He said he would kill me if I ever told!...it means “No! Don’t say I’m crazy…don’t do this to me…help me, help me, I am trapped. ”
You see Rob THAT is how ‘an alternate reality’ gets created. Though it may not seem like much to you, and though you may not understand it either, it is a horror to that little boy.
You are right, we all need freedom from undue stress and not only can it cause neurosis (an old fashioned term these days) it can also trigger psychosis and hearing voices too if intense enough. That may in fact turn out to be just the fate of the little psychiatrized boy in the story above. What kind of stress do you suppose a boy like the one mentioned above is under? If he makes it to fifteen in one piece, physically, will he get labelled ‘schizophrenic’ instead?
I predict Rob that philosophy and science and a lot of other angles on life, will all one day be seen as merely different perspectives on the same ultimate truth. The parallel of metaphysics to physics will become clear too. Everything isn’t concrete and everything isn’t about money. I suggest you look more closely at science and at Quantum mechanics to see it. I would also like to suggest you spend some time in looking at ‘Systems Theory’ so the idea of a ‘system’ as a problem won’t seem so ‘crazy’ to you.
As one of the ‘mentally ill’ you speak of, I can only wait for you (and those like you) have me, a presumed ‘problem for others’ dealt with ‘as a troublemaker.’ Loved you ‘very nice’ comment regarding what ‘we (us nuts) all talk about.’ Despite the absence of emotion in the written word, your writing is skilled enough to almost allow me to hear the patronizing little tone in your ‘corrections.’
And Rob? Life is actually much more than food, clothing, shelter and housing, although those are certainly necessities of well being too. You would find that out I think if you were placed in a position to have your thoughts and feelings controlled by others.
Actually, they can call me ‘blind’ and no one cares but if I call them ‘blind’ than I get ‘corrected’ like a naughty child. It’s the difference in power that matters Rob, not the ‘name calling.’ It is interesting to me that you believe those who support the status quo would be ‘well educated and sane.’ Also that you seem to think ‘complacency’ is a good character trait.
You sound to me like the typical ‘don’t look’ type; don’t see anything wrong in human relations, swallow a pill and make the bad uneasy feelings about it go away but don't look for the cause or try to change anything. You scare me Rob. Not because you are so different, exceptional or evil but rather because you are so ordinary; so ‘normal.’
Frankly Rob I think it is good to have a standard to which others may have to ‘measure up.’ You stated that if I ‘imagine’ a world where things are better and where someone may actually care for someone labelled (like me) that is a fantasy I am having. Really. I am pretty much the reject am I? (In your ‘normal’ opinion) Then, you equate me with a slave? You know what Rob? I can see the parallel myself there and I hope all of my readers here can too.
As to who is actually ‘the weak’ and who is ‘the strong,’ that too is not necessarily apparent. Some of the smartest, strongest people I know have been totally invalidated as human beings by the process of labelling them. It is also true that some of the most vicious and abusive addicts and criminals have been excused by basically the same process. That is one of the problems in ‘the system’ also Rob. There is no differentiation between victim and aggressors so the effect is one of excusing the aggressors and blaming the victims and indeed, there is a point where no one could tell the difference anyway, since anyone under enough pressure can suddenly switch from being the victim, to acting out as the aggressor. As Bill Cosby put it on Oprah recently: “Hurt people, hurt people.”
Please be sure to notice how the same words can define a situation in opposite ways. That ambiguous meaning is a constant when you are a labelled person and usually no one around you is interested in clarifying anything as they all keep their cards (so to speak) very close to the chest. (There are no actual ‘cards’ in that Rob; metaphorical ‘cards;’ not literal ‘cards.’) What IS that need to label so neatly and quickly Rob? Is that strength or weakness? Is it really the weakness of the labelled ones or of those who attempt to reduce human beings to the level of ‘disease processes’?
I assume you consider yourself to be among the ‘strong’ right? Do you think that just might be a perception/reaction problem you have? Maybe what is motivating you is the ‘them and us’ mentality which helps you to make sense of a world that is often run on senselessness. I understand that human need Rob. We all try to make sense of our lives. ALL of us.
Your own choice of language is quite revealing to me. You state…” the schizophrenics here will not hold a job.”
I had a job and I was ‘holding it’ just fine, for years in fact, until someone who was sure he was my ‘superior’ decided to have him a little “fun’ by harassing me ON the job. I made the mistake of assuming he was relating as equals, so I presumed the ‘fun’ included me, but it didn’t. Then, I got voted by group consensus to be ‘crazy’ so no one else would have to be.
Aside from my own details though, what do you think happens in the workforce to people who are labelled ‘insane’ and ‘dangerous’ for having ‘thoughts’ someone else does not understand or does not approve of? Do you think they are the 'hire' of choice for most employers? Do you think they get discriminated against? Do you think if they do get hired, or are still working at the former jobs, that they get treated differently after that? Do you think they get harassed on the job then too, as they are now identified as ‘inferiors’ for those who believe they can use them to act out on since the ‘inferiors’ won’t be believed anyway?
The system (yes the ‘system’ Rob) TELLS our employers that we are too ‘crazy’ to hold a job. That is why disability pensions exist you know? It is not because we define ourselves that way; although later it often becomes a self fulfilling prophecy too. It is because we are defined that way BY others. Most of us are ‘claiming’ we are not ‘sick’ in a physical way and that we don’t want or need to be drugged. THINK about that. This isn’t some scam we have planned (nefariously) to keep from having jobs (with some exceptions, more often addicts and criminals) but is sure is interesting that society wants to see it that way isn’t it? Employment forms sometimes ask, “Have you ever been diagnosed with a serious mental illness? “Despite these societal truths, you are still almost exclusively focused on blaming the identified patients for all their own troubles, in very much the the same way the world claimed not so long ago (and often still does) that black people are all inherently lazy. That is what the term ‘mentalism’ has been coined to describe.
After being forced out of my own job Rob, I had people on the mean streets of my city spewing their similar opinions at me such as, “She’s not even looking for a new job because THAT would be too much like work!” I was considered to be an excellent employee until I got targeted for labelling and then this all changed. Suddenly I was the lazy, stupid employee who was called incompetent by the same people who had started the attack in the first place and all the people THEY felt free to involve. (For my own good of course) You know why they do that? It is because they are justifying themselves as a group. If I didn’t ‘deseve’ this outcome, they might have to think they were guilty of something and they sure don’t want to do that. That is also why they make up some ‘stories’ about my work which ‘coincidentally’ tend to prove their OWN point of view, making their behaviour appear to be somewhat justifed. Of course, this is all done ‘in secret’ so that it can’t be challenged at all.
So why don’t you try rethinking this just a little bit from the point of view of the labelled. Of course, to do that, you are going to have to stop thinking you already understand it better, and learn how to listen to those who have actually BEEN there personally. That I know Rob is rarely done. After all, as psychiatrists tell others, “You can’t talk to a disease.” As I once wrote for Dan Fisher, M.D. of NEC in the US, in a list of suggestions for recovery, “I am not a disease so you CAN talk to me.”
Believe me we DO know what we experience every day Rob. We just get TOLD by the ‘strong’ that we don’t know, and that we need to ‘comply’ with THEIR understanding of our reality for our own good. They are wrong and they need to know that we do not want to be controlled by others deciding for us who we are, what we know, and how we feel about it all, anymore than THEY would, if the situation were turned around one hundred and eighty degrees. We are not ‘different’ from you. We ARE you, from a different point of view.
End of part 3
Part 4 Follows
I agree too that analyses of abuse of power tend to be favoured by those of us not IN power. I see that as a good thing though, not a ‘symptom.’ It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out why either. What I propose though is that you get the focus off of the powerless and their perceptions and reactions, and ONTO those who love power for power’s sake. You could start with yourself Rob. Why do you think YOU need to correct my perception of my own reality FOR me? What ‘practicalities and human limitations’ are you talking about? Your own? Do you think you like to look at the surface of things and perhaps even fear to look beneath? Do you think you like to justify the idea of power and control over ‘inferiors’? If so, why? Tell me why based on an analysis of YOU; not based on your analysis of ME and those ‘others’ you think are like me, and who you clearly have no problem ‘blaming.’ Do you also often instruct people like me not to ‘blame others’? Does it ever strike you as at all absurd when you hear yourself saying that?
The history lesson you are offering me in your letter is very nice, but to me, it seems more like an attempt to distract me from real issues, or perhaps to justify society by showing me that “all of this goes back a long way, so we shouldn’t try to change anything.” Is ‘any view held by most people’ always the ‘correct’ one? Do you think people tend to follow whatever the consensus opinion of the day might be? Do you think that presumably ‘sane’ people get entrenched ideas? Look at history for answers to that too.
Even though you believe that ‘rebellion’ or dissidence’ is only about ‘money and more free time’ and ‘not alternate or better realities’, I’m afraid I can’t agree.
Everything isn’t about money, which you would know if you had shared the psychiatrized experience. I am sorry to have to tell you this Rob but I get a real sense of smugness from you and your certainty that you understand this better than those of us who have lived it. It is an uncomfortable feeling I have had often with ‘others.’ No doubt you will assume this ‘discomfort’ originates within me and that is also something we are all aware of. It is like you put up a wall of separation from us so you can hide your participation in this from yourself. Most of us ‘nuts’ feel that intensely from most of you self defined ‘sane’ ones. It is in fact, one of the ‘ideas’ I am ‘rebelling’ against and intend to keep doing so too. It is such ideas that create these power struggles; ideas and beliefs Rob, not money and leisure time.
You think there is only one reality? Do you think you define that? Do you think you are keeping YOUR ‘fantasies and subjective tastes’ out of your analysis? You believe you are an ‘objective observer’ do you? I am surrounded by ‘objective observers.’
Let me give you a concrete example of ‘alternate reality’ how it works and how it becomes a part of concrete reality by bringing it into our institutions and ‘correcting’ those who ‘rebel’ against it.
Example:
A child claims he is being sexually abused by his uncle. His uncle says it is all nonsense and that his nephew is ‘ill’ for saying that. The psychiatrist who gets called in decides he believes the uncle, who seems like a real nice guy to him. The uncle seems sincere and also has a good career.
When the child hears this and he cries, “No! no!’ and the psychiatrist then ‘interprets’ the meaning of this for the uncle. The child, who is now defined as ‘mentally ill’ for claiming abuse is his problem, is now thought to be having a ‘temper tantrum’ because he cannot ‘manipulate anyone with his lies.’ He cries, “No! No!’ explains the psychiatrist, because he has been found out and his lies do not work.
The truth is the child was sexually abused and now he is trapped with his abusive uncle who has already told him that if he ever told anyone else, his uncle would kill him. So now, instead of getting help, the child is getting ‘help.’ (labelled and invalidated)
The child’s distress is real, it’s not a chemistry problem and ‘No! No!’ means “No, don’t believe my uncle. He said he would kill me if I ever told!...it means “No! Don’t say I’m crazy…don’t do this to me…help me, help me, I am trapped. ”
You see Rob THAT is how ‘an alternate reality’ gets created. Though it may not seem like much to you, and though you may not understand it either, it is a horror to that little boy.
You are right, we all need freedom from undue stress and not only can it cause neurosis (an old fashioned term these days) it can also trigger psychosis and hearing voices too if intense enough. That may in fact turn out to be just the fate of the little psychiatrized boy in the story above. What kind of stress do you suppose a boy like the one mentioned above is under? If he makes it to fifteen in one piece, physically, will he get labelled ‘schizophrenic’ instead?
I predict Rob that philosophy and science and a lot of other angles on life, will all one day be seen as merely different perspectives on the same ultimate truth. The parallel of metaphysics to physics will become clear too. Everything isn’t concrete and everything isn’t about money. I suggest you look more closely at science and at Quantum mechanics to see it. I would also like to suggest you spend some time in looking at ‘Systems Theory’ so the idea of a ‘system’ as a problem won’t seem so ‘crazy’ to you.
As one of the ‘mentally ill’ you speak of, I can only wait for you (and those like you) have me, a presumed ‘problem for others’ dealt with ‘as a troublemaker.’ Loved you ‘very nice’ comment regarding what ‘we (us nuts) all talk about.’ Despite the absence of emotion in the written word, your writing is skilled enough to almost allow me to hear the patronizing little tone in your ‘corrections.’
And Rob? Life is actually much more than food, clothing, shelter and housing, although those are certainly necessities of well being too. You would find that out I think if you were placed in a position to have your thoughts and feelings controlled by others.
Actually, they can call me ‘blind’ and no one cares but if I call them ‘blind’ than I get ‘corrected’ like a naughty child. It’s the difference in power that matters Rob, not the ‘name calling.’ It is interesting to me that you believe those who support the status quo would be ‘well educated and sane.’ Also that you seem to think ‘complacency’ is a good character trait.
You sound to me like the typical ‘don’t look’ type; don’t see anything wrong in human relations, swallow a pill and make the bad uneasy feelings about it go away but don't look for the cause or try to change anything. You scare me Rob. Not because you are so different, exceptional or evil but rather because you are so ordinary; so ‘normal.’
Frankly Rob I think it is good to have a standard to which others may have to ‘measure up.’ You stated that if I ‘imagine’ a world where things are better and where someone may actually care for someone labelled (like me) that is a fantasy I am having. Really. I am pretty much the reject am I? (In your ‘normal’ opinion) Then, you equate me with a slave? You know what Rob? I can see the parallel myself there and I hope all of my readers here can too.
As to who is actually ‘the weak’ and who is ‘the strong,’ that too is not necessarily apparent. Some of the smartest, strongest people I know have been totally invalidated as human beings by the process of labelling them. It is also true that some of the most vicious and abusive addicts and criminals have been excused by basically the same process. That is one of the problems in ‘the system’ also Rob. There is no differentiation between victim and aggressors so the effect is one of excusing the aggressors and blaming the victims and indeed, there is a point where no one could tell the difference anyway, since anyone under enough pressure can suddenly switch from being the victim, to acting out as the aggressor. As Bill Cosby put it on Oprah recently: “Hurt people, hurt people.”
Please be sure to notice how the same words can define a situation in opposite ways. That ambiguous meaning is a constant when you are a labelled person and usually no one around you is interested in clarifying anything as they all keep their cards (so to speak) very close to the chest. (There are no actual ‘cards’ in that Rob; metaphorical ‘cards;’ not literal ‘cards.’) What IS that need to label so neatly and quickly Rob? Is that strength or weakness? Is it really the weakness of the labelled ones or of those who attempt to reduce human beings to the level of ‘disease processes’?
I assume you consider yourself to be among the ‘strong’ right? Do you think that just might be a perception/reaction problem you have? Maybe what is motivating you is the ‘them and us’ mentality which helps you to make sense of a world that is often run on senselessness. I understand that human need Rob. We all try to make sense of our lives. ALL of us.
Your own choice of language is quite revealing to me. You state…” the schizophrenics here will not hold a job.”
I had a job and I was ‘holding it’ just fine, for years in fact, until someone who was sure he was my ‘superior’ decided to have him a little “fun’ by harassing me ON the job. I made the mistake of assuming he was relating as equals, so I presumed the ‘fun’ included me, but it didn’t. Then, I got voted by group consensus to be ‘crazy’ so no one else would have to be.
Aside from my own details though, what do you think happens in the workforce to people who are labelled ‘insane’ and ‘dangerous’ for having ‘thoughts’ someone else does not understand or does not approve of? Do you think they are the 'hire' of choice for most employers? Do you think they get discriminated against? Do you think if they do get hired, or are still working at the former jobs, that they get treated differently after that? Do you think they get harassed on the job then too, as they are now identified as ‘inferiors’ for those who believe they can use them to act out on since the ‘inferiors’ won’t be believed anyway?
The system (yes the ‘system’ Rob) TELLS our employers that we are too ‘crazy’ to hold a job. That is why disability pensions exist you know? It is not because we define ourselves that way; although later it often becomes a self fulfilling prophecy too. It is because we are defined that way BY others. Most of us are ‘claiming’ we are not ‘sick’ in a physical way and that we don’t want or need to be drugged. THINK about that. This isn’t some scam we have planned (nefariously) to keep from having jobs (with some exceptions, more often addicts and criminals) but is sure is interesting that society wants to see it that way isn’t it? Employment forms sometimes ask, “Have you ever been diagnosed with a serious mental illness? “Despite these societal truths, you are still almost exclusively focused on blaming the identified patients for all their own troubles, in very much the the same way the world claimed not so long ago (and often still does) that black people are all inherently lazy. That is what the term ‘mentalism’ has been coined to describe.
After being forced out of my own job Rob, I had people on the mean streets of my city spewing their similar opinions at me such as, “She’s not even looking for a new job because THAT would be too much like work!” I was considered to be an excellent employee until I got targeted for labelling and then this all changed. Suddenly I was the lazy, stupid employee who was called incompetent by the same people who had started the attack in the first place and all the people THEY felt free to involve. (For my own good of course) You know why they do that? It is because they are justifying themselves as a group. If I didn’t ‘deseve’ this outcome, they might have to think they were guilty of something and they sure don’t want to do that. That is also why they make up some ‘stories’ about my work which ‘coincidentally’ tend to prove their OWN point of view, making their behaviour appear to be somewhat justifed. Of course, this is all done ‘in secret’ so that it can’t be challenged at all.
So why don’t you try rethinking this just a little bit from the point of view of the labelled. Of course, to do that, you are going to have to stop thinking you already understand it better, and learn how to listen to those who have actually BEEN there personally. That I know Rob is rarely done. After all, as psychiatrists tell others, “You can’t talk to a disease.” As I once wrote for Dan Fisher, M.D. of NEC in the US, in a list of suggestions for recovery, “I am not a disease so you CAN talk to me.”
Believe me we DO know what we experience every day Rob. We just get TOLD by the ‘strong’ that we don’t know, and that we need to ‘comply’ with THEIR understanding of our reality for our own good. They are wrong and they need to know that we do not want to be controlled by others deciding for us who we are, what we know, and how we feel about it all, anymore than THEY would, if the situation were turned around one hundred and eighty degrees. We are not ‘different’ from you. We ARE you, from a different point of view.
End of part 3
Part 4 Follows
Dear Rob H. from the USA : Part 4
By Patricia Lefave, Labelled, D.D. (P)
Have you noticed how rare it is to hear directly from the identified patient, what his/her experience of reality actually is? Do you notice it is almost always other people acting as ‘interpreters’ for us as if we were incapable of human speech? Do you know why? Because the ‘strong’ like to dictate to the ‘weak’ what it is that is the nature of reality itself. It is who is whom that gives us the biggest problem. Do you really think the need to dominate and control others is a sign of moral strength Rob? I don’t. I think that hidden agendas of domination and submission indicate a profound and very basic weakness based on fear. Would you still define it as ‘strength’ if it was me doing it? Or would your definition then change to suit your judgments about who is who?
Interesting too isn’t it that one nation (or time period’s) prophets and holy ones are another nations’ (or time period’s) ‘schizophrenics?” What do you think that signifies? As for dealing with the issue like India where I would be called “holy”…hmmmm…well if I was thought of as ‘holy’ I may get harassed a lot less by the public so it might work better for ME, even if it offends you.
I wish I could get more ‘alms’ here to make me go away. Maybe I am not being given money because I am not annoying enough and some people still WANT me around. Could THAT be the problem?
As a ‘crazy’ I just want to mention that I don’t smoke anything at all. Nor do I take any drugs. How about you Rob? Do you smoke anything or swallow anything to make yourself feel more normal? Are you in the same ‘subgroup’ as the crazies of India ? Does that mean you are crazy too or is there some magic formula you have that separates some smokers and swallowers from the others?
So if there are fewer mental hospitals in India then maybe that means they are less crazy over there or America is more crazy, or it just seems that way. Lots of possible answers aren’t there Rob?
Thank you Rob, for taking the time to remind that I am just plain crazy and offensive to people. It must be nice to be as inoffensive as you. (I am laughing for no reason right now) I will try to stay away from all the workplaces and parties where I am not wanted. I now understand that I am just an idiot who does not understand as much as you. Thanks for ‘enlightening’ me.
Do any of you who work within the ‘system’ (thanks for acknowledging that you see one) ever think you might be selling your souls for money and inclusion, or have you pretty much given up the idea of having souls? I guess it probably will work pretty good for you, as is, at least as long as you manage to get yourself psychiatrized. Better be careful what you smoke at those parties that still want you there!
Even though I don’t have anything of real value to tell humanity, I intend to keep on talking; but then Rob, what can you expect from one of us fame seeking, annoying crazies huh?
It is unjust to compare to Jesus and Gandhi? Really?
Jesus was someone who ‘thought’ he was the son of God. He talked to angels and he believed he was here to save the world. He talked to voices that no one else understood. He believed he could come back from the dead. He had problems with ‘authority.’ He had the nerve to tell his superiors they were wrong about their beliefs even though they were experts. He worked as a carpenter when he worked at all, and didn’t seem to have any goals that met with the approval of those around him. He had a fit, at least once, yelling at strangers inside in a temple, while claiming it was his father’s house. He claimed he was mocked and ridiculed by others. He felt threatened and claimed he was being persecuted by others for no reason. He even asked some people, "Why are you persecuting me?" He thought people were after him. He thought they wanted to do him harm. He was sometimes disrespectful and insulting to his own mother telling her not to 'tell' him 'what to do ‘woman!'” He received death threats and eventually he was attacked by a mob and tortured to death because he was so annoying.
If this man was on the streets here today, what do you think the most common reaction would be to him? What would yours be Rob?
Take another look at Gandhi the anorectic, who rebelled against authority too Rob. Just put all the truth you find into a psychiatrized framework and you may well see something you have never seen before.
It is pretty hard to be ‘an active man or woman plotting rebellion’ (your words) after you have been locked up as crazy 'for actively plotting rebellion.' Guess why the one defined as ‘crazy’ is ‘ineffective.’ Go ahead; guess.
Do you really believe that everyone who is not really ‘crazy’ overcomes the stigma and proves his or her own case? Do you actually believe that people who were never ‘crazy’ in the first place can just get out of the system that rarely admits its own error? How naïve is that? It is interesting though that even those who manage to prove it cannot make you question the validity of the claims of those who CAN'T prove it. I dare say that most of us cannot 'prove' we are having the experience we are having, and that we never could. We rarely get listened to for more than a few minutes and no one investigates what we say concretely. It is really not like a court of law you know.
The first psychiatrist I talked to about my REAL problem told me it was 'not his job to be an investigator.' To me this is a justification you are using as a means of supporting the status quo and looking no further. Again Rob, I get that certain smugness from you. I hope you never have to learn what the ‘system’ is really like from the inside of it as the identified patient. You are in for one hell of a shock.
Interesting too that you think a few ‘poor and average children getting rich’ is proof of a well working system. Again, I see your own values (money) trumping all the losses created for others. Mel Gibson is ‘crazy’ to you also? (I may have my own view on that too but that is not the point I am making here) Is he on ‘medication’ for that then? SHOULD he be? Do you have any difficulty deciding who should, or should not, be defined as ‘crazy’ and therefore be on medication against his or her own will if necessary?
It seems to be a matter of ‘butt kissing’ to you. “Success’ seems to be defined by you as being in a position to degrade and humiliate ‘others’ rather than being degraded and humiliated BY ‘others.’
You see Rob, many of us ‘crazies’ don’t think like many of you ‘normals’ and, shocking as this may be to you, we DON’T WANT TO think like you! We believe you are blind to both yourself and us. (Imagine that.)
You say, “This is how humanity is.”
This is the type of comment that we hear a lot from the complacent. It is used as an excuse not to try to change anything. It is often presented as if some sort of plan floating down intact from ‘above’ which was applied directly to our genes. It is an idea used to say, “this is all beyond our control.’ Humanity is like it is because humanity has MADE it this way, and much of what has been made is supported with mind numbing platitudes just like these.
In previous times I would have called it a ‘cop out.’ Anything that a group of people do in agreement or decide to try to cover up can be defined as a conspiracy. Normals like yourself like to pretend that groups of people do not do this despite all kind of evidence that it is done all the time and has been for centuries. How do you manage to blind yourself to it so effectively Rob? I do believe we can do much better than this and I intend to keep pushing in that direction.
Isn’t it fascinating that between you and I, you, the presumed ‘normal’ are the defeatist and I the presumed ‘crazy’ am the optimistic one? Pretty weird when you think about it a minute isn’t it? Perhaps YOU need some medication?
I am actually happy you are not ‘in charge’ Rob and I hope that you never are unless you first open up that closed mind of yours to some peoples’ reality. We do agree on that one point though that neither of us wants to spend this kind of money on the current mental illness system. (Which you call the mental health care system) That is the point of division between us though. I would be focused on re-educating the normals and not assuming that anyone is ‘confused’ because they are defective as opposed to ‘confused’ because they are confused BY ‘defectives. I would even suggest you take your own advice and really look hard at accurate history, math and physics and a number of other scientific points of view as well. You just may be surprised at what you find out. They may even help you with your own sanity.
I will just hope for the best Rob and with luck and prayer perhaps we can keep you, and those who think like you, out of the mental ‘health’ business before you assign me to my suggested new home in a forced labour camp. Or perhaps you have a trip to India in mind for me where I can ‘wander around in the muck’ if only those ‘Hindus’ don’t stop you from sending me there. But then as you tell me, they are ‘all ‘crazy too’ just like me.
Did you know Rob that the word ‘asylum’ actually means a place of peace, and protection? Strange how humanity can take words and make them mean something totally different then they were intended to mean isn’t it? In fact, it really seems quite crazy doesn’t it?
I hope this selected (long) response helps all others who send me ‘comments’ like this to understand me and the other ‘crazies’ a little bit better. If not, perhaps it will give some of the less vocal readers some idea of what we are getting for our efforts and help them understand some of the normal people better than they did before. As I once said while inside the psychiatric hospital of my own experience, “It is hard to separate the ‘crazies’ from the ‘normals’ (Including many of the staff there) without a program.' It is also that same point where one is either lost or found. When I thought to myself, of the presumed to be ‘normal’ all around me, “They all look insane,’ I passed the point of being lost and started back on the return trip to reconnect with my own sanity. To do that, I had to fully see the ‘normal’ as they really are and it was quite the shock at first, but I got over it.I knew then. 'That’s it,' I said to myself, ‘they look crazy because they are. I am the sanest member of this group.’
I didn’t tell them that then of course, as I knew that if I did, that too would be heard only as a ‘symptom’ of mine since they all believed that ‘reality’ was defined by a combination of ‘authority’ and ‘group consensus’ which was exactly what my own protagonist was counting on. He and I knew that the reality of the situation was the exact opposite and he also knew that the punch line of his ‘joke’ was this: “Reality is NOT that which is defined by authority or group consensus but is that which you experience."
In 1999, I also knew the punch line of his joke.Of course I also know that people like Rob here won’t get that joke since he cannot really see what is happening here in the same way that I see it. Anyone who really wanted to see it could if they just talked directly to me, but of course, they don’t and they won’t.Now ‘the joke’ is going to be on my protagonist and on a lot of other people who think just like him. How do I know this? I am what some people like to call ‘psychic.’ In other words, I can ‘see things’ that a lot of people who define themselves as ‘normal’ cannot see. And THAT last statement is the nexus or ‘crux’ of the whole matter.
Have you noticed how rare it is to hear directly from the identified patient, what his/her experience of reality actually is? Do you notice it is almost always other people acting as ‘interpreters’ for us as if we were incapable of human speech? Do you know why? Because the ‘strong’ like to dictate to the ‘weak’ what it is that is the nature of reality itself. It is who is whom that gives us the biggest problem. Do you really think the need to dominate and control others is a sign of moral strength Rob? I don’t. I think that hidden agendas of domination and submission indicate a profound and very basic weakness based on fear. Would you still define it as ‘strength’ if it was me doing it? Or would your definition then change to suit your judgments about who is who?
Interesting too isn’t it that one nation (or time period’s) prophets and holy ones are another nations’ (or time period’s) ‘schizophrenics?” What do you think that signifies? As for dealing with the issue like India where I would be called “holy”…hmmmm…well if I was thought of as ‘holy’ I may get harassed a lot less by the public so it might work better for ME, even if it offends you.
I wish I could get more ‘alms’ here to make me go away. Maybe I am not being given money because I am not annoying enough and some people still WANT me around. Could THAT be the problem?
As a ‘crazy’ I just want to mention that I don’t smoke anything at all. Nor do I take any drugs. How about you Rob? Do you smoke anything or swallow anything to make yourself feel more normal? Are you in the same ‘subgroup’ as the crazies of India ? Does that mean you are crazy too or is there some magic formula you have that separates some smokers and swallowers from the others?
So if there are fewer mental hospitals in India then maybe that means they are less crazy over there or America is more crazy, or it just seems that way. Lots of possible answers aren’t there Rob?
Thank you Rob, for taking the time to remind that I am just plain crazy and offensive to people. It must be nice to be as inoffensive as you. (I am laughing for no reason right now) I will try to stay away from all the workplaces and parties where I am not wanted. I now understand that I am just an idiot who does not understand as much as you. Thanks for ‘enlightening’ me.
Do any of you who work within the ‘system’ (thanks for acknowledging that you see one) ever think you might be selling your souls for money and inclusion, or have you pretty much given up the idea of having souls? I guess it probably will work pretty good for you, as is, at least as long as you manage to get yourself psychiatrized. Better be careful what you smoke at those parties that still want you there!
Even though I don’t have anything of real value to tell humanity, I intend to keep on talking; but then Rob, what can you expect from one of us fame seeking, annoying crazies huh?
It is unjust to compare to Jesus and Gandhi? Really?
Jesus was someone who ‘thought’ he was the son of God. He talked to angels and he believed he was here to save the world. He talked to voices that no one else understood. He believed he could come back from the dead. He had problems with ‘authority.’ He had the nerve to tell his superiors they were wrong about their beliefs even though they were experts. He worked as a carpenter when he worked at all, and didn’t seem to have any goals that met with the approval of those around him. He had a fit, at least once, yelling at strangers inside in a temple, while claiming it was his father’s house. He claimed he was mocked and ridiculed by others. He felt threatened and claimed he was being persecuted by others for no reason. He even asked some people, "Why are you persecuting me?" He thought people were after him. He thought they wanted to do him harm. He was sometimes disrespectful and insulting to his own mother telling her not to 'tell' him 'what to do ‘woman!'” He received death threats and eventually he was attacked by a mob and tortured to death because he was so annoying.
If this man was on the streets here today, what do you think the most common reaction would be to him? What would yours be Rob?
Take another look at Gandhi the anorectic, who rebelled against authority too Rob. Just put all the truth you find into a psychiatrized framework and you may well see something you have never seen before.
It is pretty hard to be ‘an active man or woman plotting rebellion’ (your words) after you have been locked up as crazy 'for actively plotting rebellion.' Guess why the one defined as ‘crazy’ is ‘ineffective.’ Go ahead; guess.
Do you really believe that everyone who is not really ‘crazy’ overcomes the stigma and proves his or her own case? Do you actually believe that people who were never ‘crazy’ in the first place can just get out of the system that rarely admits its own error? How naïve is that? It is interesting though that even those who manage to prove it cannot make you question the validity of the claims of those who CAN'T prove it. I dare say that most of us cannot 'prove' we are having the experience we are having, and that we never could. We rarely get listened to for more than a few minutes and no one investigates what we say concretely. It is really not like a court of law you know.
The first psychiatrist I talked to about my REAL problem told me it was 'not his job to be an investigator.' To me this is a justification you are using as a means of supporting the status quo and looking no further. Again Rob, I get that certain smugness from you. I hope you never have to learn what the ‘system’ is really like from the inside of it as the identified patient. You are in for one hell of a shock.
Interesting too that you think a few ‘poor and average children getting rich’ is proof of a well working system. Again, I see your own values (money) trumping all the losses created for others. Mel Gibson is ‘crazy’ to you also? (I may have my own view on that too but that is not the point I am making here) Is he on ‘medication’ for that then? SHOULD he be? Do you have any difficulty deciding who should, or should not, be defined as ‘crazy’ and therefore be on medication against his or her own will if necessary?
It seems to be a matter of ‘butt kissing’ to you. “Success’ seems to be defined by you as being in a position to degrade and humiliate ‘others’ rather than being degraded and humiliated BY ‘others.’
You see Rob, many of us ‘crazies’ don’t think like many of you ‘normals’ and, shocking as this may be to you, we DON’T WANT TO think like you! We believe you are blind to both yourself and us. (Imagine that.)
You say, “This is how humanity is.”
This is the type of comment that we hear a lot from the complacent. It is used as an excuse not to try to change anything. It is often presented as if some sort of plan floating down intact from ‘above’ which was applied directly to our genes. It is an idea used to say, “this is all beyond our control.’ Humanity is like it is because humanity has MADE it this way, and much of what has been made is supported with mind numbing platitudes just like these.
In previous times I would have called it a ‘cop out.’ Anything that a group of people do in agreement or decide to try to cover up can be defined as a conspiracy. Normals like yourself like to pretend that groups of people do not do this despite all kind of evidence that it is done all the time and has been for centuries. How do you manage to blind yourself to it so effectively Rob? I do believe we can do much better than this and I intend to keep pushing in that direction.
Isn’t it fascinating that between you and I, you, the presumed ‘normal’ are the defeatist and I the presumed ‘crazy’ am the optimistic one? Pretty weird when you think about it a minute isn’t it? Perhaps YOU need some medication?
I am actually happy you are not ‘in charge’ Rob and I hope that you never are unless you first open up that closed mind of yours to some peoples’ reality. We do agree on that one point though that neither of us wants to spend this kind of money on the current mental illness system. (Which you call the mental health care system) That is the point of division between us though. I would be focused on re-educating the normals and not assuming that anyone is ‘confused’ because they are defective as opposed to ‘confused’ because they are confused BY ‘defectives. I would even suggest you take your own advice and really look hard at accurate history, math and physics and a number of other scientific points of view as well. You just may be surprised at what you find out. They may even help you with your own sanity.
I will just hope for the best Rob and with luck and prayer perhaps we can keep you, and those who think like you, out of the mental ‘health’ business before you assign me to my suggested new home in a forced labour camp. Or perhaps you have a trip to India in mind for me where I can ‘wander around in the muck’ if only those ‘Hindus’ don’t stop you from sending me there. But then as you tell me, they are ‘all ‘crazy too’ just like me.
Did you know Rob that the word ‘asylum’ actually means a place of peace, and protection? Strange how humanity can take words and make them mean something totally different then they were intended to mean isn’t it? In fact, it really seems quite crazy doesn’t it?
One last thing here. As I wait for you or someone much like you to pick me up and haul me off to a forced labour camp or perhaps this decade’s version of the concentration camp for me and other genetic defectives like myself, please accept my heartfelt thanks and gratitude for your ‘help.’ Many try to ‘straighten me out’ on my perception of, and reactions to, my own reality but I found your attempt particularly representational, which is why I chose to publish it. I really mean that. It is a great example of just the sort of opinions and assessments all the ‘mentally ill’ people like me tend to get daily from a lot of really normal people.
They tell us of course, that it is really inappropriate of us to react to this sort of thing with fear, anger or resentment. In light of that knowledge Rob just let me say, ‘cheers!’ right back at you and thanks for showing the world what it is like to get so nicely and generously corrected by others as seen from my point of view. I could not have done this without you.
End of series on my Answer to Rob H. from the USA
I hope this selected (long) response helps all others who send me ‘comments’ like this to understand me and the other ‘crazies’ a little bit better. If not, perhaps it will give some of the less vocal readers some idea of what we are getting for our efforts and help them understand some of the normal people better than they did before. As I once said while inside the psychiatric hospital of my own experience, “It is hard to separate the ‘crazies’ from the ‘normals’ (Including many of the staff there) without a program.' It is also that same point where one is either lost or found. When I thought to myself, of the presumed to be ‘normal’ all around me, “They all look insane,’ I passed the point of being lost and started back on the return trip to reconnect with my own sanity. To do that, I had to fully see the ‘normal’ as they really are and it was quite the shock at first, but I got over it.I knew then. 'That’s it,' I said to myself, ‘they look crazy because they are. I am the sanest member of this group.’
I didn’t tell them that then of course, as I knew that if I did, that too would be heard only as a ‘symptom’ of mine since they all believed that ‘reality’ was defined by a combination of ‘authority’ and ‘group consensus’ which was exactly what my own protagonist was counting on. He and I knew that the reality of the situation was the exact opposite and he also knew that the punch line of his ‘joke’ was this: “Reality is NOT that which is defined by authority or group consensus but is that which you experience."
In 1999, I also knew the punch line of his joke.Of course I also know that people like Rob here won’t get that joke since he cannot really see what is happening here in the same way that I see it. Anyone who really wanted to see it could if they just talked directly to me, but of course, they don’t and they won’t.Now ‘the joke’ is going to be on my protagonist and on a lot of other people who think just like him. How do I know this? I am what some people like to call ‘psychic.’ In other words, I can ‘see things’ that a lot of people who define themselves as ‘normal’ cannot see. And THAT last statement is the nexus or ‘crux’ of the whole matter.
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